Only in more modern fantasy; in Tolkien, that's not a general trope associated with them.Ted the Flayer wrote:Aren't elves typically portrayed as depraved bisexuals though? Or does that exist only in my imagination...
The Hobbit Sucked/No it didn't!
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RadiantPhoenix
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But surely, an Istari, one of the Maiar, especially the angelic ambassador to elves and men sent by the gods themselves... is on her freebie list. Right? Her husband would have to respect that.
Now you're making me feel uncomfortable in my fantasy fic, since it almost seems like an abuse of authority due to the difficulty of consent when dealing with the divine. It's not as bad as forcing yourself upon a virgin to make her give birth to yourself, but it's still bad.
I mean, it's not like you say 'no' to your god. Not just because that's bad form, but because surely they know best.
Gah. Fuck you to the depths of Mordor, RadiantPhoenix. You've cunningly made me convert into thinking that my idea was bad and that I should feel bad. All without having suggested such, overtly.
Your cruel subtlety is noted, and I'm watching you.
Waiting.
Now you're making me feel uncomfortable in my fantasy fic, since it almost seems like an abuse of authority due to the difficulty of consent when dealing with the divine. It's not as bad as forcing yourself upon a virgin to make her give birth to yourself, but it's still bad.
I mean, it's not like you say 'no' to your god. Not just because that's bad form, but because surely they know best.
Gah. Fuck you to the depths of Mordor, RadiantPhoenix. You've cunningly made me convert into thinking that my idea was bad and that I should feel bad. All without having suggested such, overtly.
Your cruel subtlety is noted, and I'm watching you.
Waiting.
I don't think the fairest of not only all the Noldor and the rest of the elves but also one of the mightiest living since the second (maybe First) age of Middle Earth cares about simple mores of fidelity.
edit: added that important word - little
edit: removed - little - because I apparently can't read my own post...
edit: added that important word - little
edit: removed - little - because I apparently can't read my own post...
Last edited by Cynic on Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:18 am, edited 2 times in total.
Ancient History wrote:We were working on Street Magic, and Frank asked me if a houngan had run over my dog.
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RadiantPhoenix
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Sauron called himself that too. (Galadriel was one of those who didn't trust him, though)erik wrote:But surely, an Istari, one of the Maiar, especially the angelic ambassador to elves and men sent by the gods themselves... is on her freebie list. Right? Her husband would have to respect that.
ed: apparently that factoid (that Sauron claimed to be an emissary of the Valar) isn't listed on that page, it's listed here
Galadriel totally did defy the Valar several times -- she was one of the Noldor who ran away to Middle Earth to fight Morgoth withe Feanor after the destruction of the Two Trees, and is still under the Doom of Mandos at this point for that, even though most of those who were originally under it were forgiven approximately six and a half milennia earlier. This is because she refused the Valar's pardon at the end of the first age.I mean, it's not like you say 'no' to your god. Not just because that's bad form, but because surely they know best.
EDIT:
One of the names for her husband is Teleporno. I'll let you make of that what you will.Cynic wrote:I don't think the fairest of not only all the Noldor and the rest of the elves but also one of the mightiest living since the second (maybe First) age of Middle Earth cares about simple mores of fidelity.
EDIT 2: Fixed double post, and added an extra link
Last edited by RadiantPhoenix on Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
Problems:
1. Azog not dying, against canon. Azog should've died, re-written so that Thorin kills him instead of Thorin's relative, and they should have kept Bolg as Azog's son. Thorin avenging his line and Bolg hunting Thorin to avenge the orc's father's death would've been a much better villain than just Azog.
2. So if Gandalf doesn't know that the Necromancer is Sauron (how the fuck he doesn't is a mystery, since the Necromancer was there, in Dol Guldur, BEFORE, as a front for Sauron, yes?), then how did he get the map and key? I fear the answer to this is going to be shit. This is only a threat of a problem.
3. The Witch King is not fucking dead and not entombed. I have no idea why they redid this. It takes not-a-man to kill him, and that's a big damn deal in LotR. Why is he then entombed? Who the fuck knows. Maybe it was a hoax tomb or something. I am prepared to be disappointed.
4. BILBO ACTION HERO at the end of the movie was total shit. Complete, hackneyed shit. There had to have been a better way to display his courage than that utterly predictable scene.
Otherwise I appreciated the deeper exegesis into Middle Earth, didn't care a whit about any non-canonical alterations not listed above, enjoyed the stretching out of scenes like the dwarves' escape from the Goblin King, and overall enjoyed the movie and will see all three.
1. Azog not dying, against canon. Azog should've died, re-written so that Thorin kills him instead of Thorin's relative, and they should have kept Bolg as Azog's son. Thorin avenging his line and Bolg hunting Thorin to avenge the orc's father's death would've been a much better villain than just Azog.
2. So if Gandalf doesn't know that the Necromancer is Sauron (how the fuck he doesn't is a mystery, since the Necromancer was there, in Dol Guldur, BEFORE, as a front for Sauron, yes?), then how did he get the map and key? I fear the answer to this is going to be shit. This is only a threat of a problem.
3. The Witch King is not fucking dead and not entombed. I have no idea why they redid this. It takes not-a-man to kill him, and that's a big damn deal in LotR. Why is he then entombed? Who the fuck knows. Maybe it was a hoax tomb or something. I am prepared to be disappointed.
4. BILBO ACTION HERO at the end of the movie was total shit. Complete, hackneyed shit. There had to have been a better way to display his courage than that utterly predictable scene.
Otherwise I appreciated the deeper exegesis into Middle Earth, didn't care a whit about any non-canonical alterations not listed above, enjoyed the stretching out of scenes like the dwarves' escape from the Goblin King, and overall enjoyed the movie and will see all three.
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Darth Rabbitt
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I suspect that will all happen in the next movie, or at least I hope it will.mean_liar wrote:Azog not dying, against canon. Azog should've died, re-written so that Thorin kills him instead of Thorin's relative, and they should have kept Bolg as Azog's son. Thorin avenging his line and Bolg hunting Thorin to avenge the orc's father's death would've been a much better villain than just Azog.
Pseudo Stupidity wrote:This Applebees fucking sucks, much like all Applebees. I wanted to go to Femboy Hooters (communism).
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Shrapnel
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The undead kicking ass in Return of the King is against canon, too. In the original book, Gimli (or Legolas, one of the two), just recounts a rather boring and really anti-climatic of how account of how the undead helped them in a minor way, and then left. In the movie, the undead help the Fellowship defeat a large portion of Sauron's army. They even swarmed and killed oliphant! Cool.
Anyway, the key thing people seem to be missing is that these films are adaptations, thus meaning that they are different interpretations of the source material, and are thus not going to gel perfectly with the said original source material.
Think of it not as a straight retelling of the original books, but more as a different take on the story.
Anyway, the key thing people seem to be missing is that these films are adaptations, thus meaning that they are different interpretations of the source material, and are thus not going to gel perfectly with the said original source material.
Think of it not as a straight retelling of the original books, but more as a different take on the story.
Is this wretched demi-bee
Half asleep upon my knee
Some freak from a menagerie?
No! It's Eric, the half a bee
Half asleep upon my knee
Some freak from a menagerie?
No! It's Eric, the half a bee
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Ted the Flayer
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I'll agree with the implausibility of the Bilbo action hero scene. Unless he took a level of barbarian at some point, that didn't make sense.
Prak Anima wrote:Um, Frank, I believe you're missing the fact that the game is glorified spank material/foreplay.
Frank Trollman wrote:I don't think that is any excuse for a game to have bad mechanics.
I dunno. The book makes it clear that Bilbo is braver than he thought at first. I guess they had to try to show that somehow.
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.
--The horror of Mario
Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
--The horror of Mario
Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
There are reasonable steps to take with adaptations, however. The Hobbit already had a perfectly acceptable Badass Orc Leader. They could have simply expanded on Bolg in the present rather than digging up Azog and having him run around with Thorin.Shrapnel wrote:The undead kicking ass in Return of the King is against canon, too. In the original book, Gimli (or Legolas, one of the two), just recounts a rather boring and really anti-climatic of how account of how the undead helped them in a minor way, and then left. In the movie, the undead help the Fellowship defeat a large portion of Sauron's army. They even swarmed and killed oliphant! Cool.
Anyway, the key thing people seem to be missing is that these films are adaptations, thus meaning that they are different interpretations of the source material, and are thus not going to gel perfectly with the said original source material.
Think of it not as a straight retelling of the original books, but more as a different take on the story.
Its like a bad WWII fanfic with an extended flashback to an 'epic' (but actually terrible) death match between Rommel and Montgomery during the First World War for no reason at all.[/i]
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Shrapnel
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Hmm... I agree that maybe Azog wasn't the best way to go, but my main point was that just because the movie made changes, that doesn't mean that it's horrible, or that it ruined the original material forever.
(I mean, for example, I'm still a fan of Transformers, and still buy the toys, despite the fact that Michael Bay exists.)
(I mean, for example, I'm still a fan of Transformers, and still buy the toys, despite the fact that Michael Bay exists.)
Is this wretched demi-bee
Half asleep upon my knee
Some freak from a menagerie?
No! It's Eric, the half a bee
Half asleep upon my knee
Some freak from a menagerie?
No! It's Eric, the half a bee
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Lago PARANOIA
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As I've said before, all of the weak parts of The Hobbit movie (except for the stone giant thing) came from when parts of the book got adapted. Did there really need to be 15 dwarves? Or that pointlessly mean introduction sequence? Or that troll cannibalism scene?
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Lago PARANOIA
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The trolls trying to eat the dwarves?
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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RobbyPants
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...You Lost Me
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It is where you eat your own species, but I think we all know what Lago's getting at.
As a person who only read the hobbit with his dad when he was a little kid, I really like Azog as the villain instead of Bolg. Especially because they were able to bring him in with a giant mace-thing instead of an arm. That was really cool.
As a person who only read the hobbit with his dad when he was a little kid, I really like Azog as the villain instead of Bolg. Especially because they were able to bring him in with a giant mace-thing instead of an arm. That was really cool.
DSMatticus wrote:Again, look at this fucking map you moron. Take your finger and trace each country's coast, then trace its claim line. Even you - and I say that as someone who could not think less of your intelligence - should be able to tell that one of these things is not like the other.
Kaelik wrote:I invented saying mean things about Tussock.
I checked a few things. Shame they didn't do Azog's most badass moment. He cut off Thror's head and branded his name on the forehead.
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.
--The horror of Mario
Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
--The horror of Mario
Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
Well, as several people including me didn't understand what the fuck he was talking about and were trying to figure out when trolls ate other trolls, it seems like in fact, we didn't know what Lago was getting at....You Lost Me wrote:It is where you eat your own species, but I think we all know what Lago's getting at.
Frankly, I think everyone complaining about the lack of Bolg are just arbitrarily declare it better because it was in the book. I see absolutely no benefit to Bolg over Azog at all from a story point of view. What possible advantage makes Bolg seeking revenge somehow better and more meaningful than Azog seeking revenge for his arm?...You Lost Me wrote:As a person who only read the hobbit with his dad when he was a little kid, I really like Azog as the villain instead of Bolg. Especially because they were able to bring him in with a giant mace-thing instead of an arm. That was really cool.
The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
The movie narrative is: "Azog hates Thorin because Thorin took his arm; Thorin hates Azog because Azog killed his grandfather". With Bolg, it becomes: "Bolg hates Thorin because Thorin killed his father; Thorin hates Bolg because Bolg's father killed his grandfather".
Given the movie's emphasis on Thorin's responsibility to his ancestors, I find the second narrative structure's opposite parallels more appealing. Azog comes off as pretty 2D; a minute or so on Bolg could've provided him with a little more depth and made him a more interesting villain.
Of all the canonical deviations, that and BILBO ACTION HERO were the only ones that I really found distasteful. As Bolg/Azog is concerned (as well as pretty much all non-Hobbit canon), I was totally ignorant of the subject until after I'd seen the movie and started reading the shit out of the Tolkien wiki: I'm not invested in the canon at all, I just felt that Bolg made a superior story than Azog.
Given the movie's emphasis on Thorin's responsibility to his ancestors, I find the second narrative structure's opposite parallels more appealing. Azog comes off as pretty 2D; a minute or so on Bolg could've provided him with a little more depth and made him a more interesting villain.
Of all the canonical deviations, that and BILBO ACTION HERO were the only ones that I really found distasteful. As Bolg/Azog is concerned (as well as pretty much all non-Hobbit canon), I was totally ignorant of the subject until after I'd seen the movie and started reading the shit out of the Tolkien wiki: I'm not invested in the canon at all, I just felt that Bolg made a superior story than Azog.
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Username17
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The Necromancer isn't Sauron. It's the king of Angmar, returned from his tomb. He's a Ringwraith, not Sauron personally.mean liar wrote:2. So if Gandalf doesn't know that the Necromancer is Sauron (how the fuck he doesn't is a mystery, since the Necromancer was there, in Dol Guldur, BEFORE, as a front for Sauron, yes?), then how did he get the map and key? I fear the answer to this is going to be shit. This is only a threat of a problem.
-Username17
Book or movie? Because I remember it pretty clearly that the Necromancer was one of Sauron's guises and he was gearing up for an official declared comeback.
Normally, I'd hesitate on using Wikipedia, but I think we can trust the fanboys on this one. Sauron the Necromancer
Now, the thing that attacked Radagast in the movie was pretty obviously meant to be the Witch-King. Looked like what Frodo got a look at in the first movie. And the morgul knife and all that. The Witch-King was causing some heinous fuckery before, and got forced into retreating and giving up his Kingdom of Angmar.
If I remember my nerdery correctly, you can fuck a Nazgul up temporarily. It destroys his body, but not his actual spirit, which slinks on back to Sauron to ask for a new one. The Witch-King, aka Nazgul #1, got killed in Return of the King because Merry stabbed him with a knife that was made for fucking up shit like him. And it weakened him/bound him so that yeah, he could be finished off.
I could be wrong; it's been a while and I'm having a burst of pre-work laziness so I'm not gonna check it right now.
Normally, I'd hesitate on using Wikipedia, but I think we can trust the fanboys on this one. Sauron the Necromancer
Now, the thing that attacked Radagast in the movie was pretty obviously meant to be the Witch-King. Looked like what Frodo got a look at in the first movie. And the morgul knife and all that. The Witch-King was causing some heinous fuckery before, and got forced into retreating and giving up his Kingdom of Angmar.
If I remember my nerdery correctly, you can fuck a Nazgul up temporarily. It destroys his body, but not his actual spirit, which slinks on back to Sauron to ask for a new one. The Witch-King, aka Nazgul #1, got killed in Return of the King because Merry stabbed him with a knife that was made for fucking up shit like him. And it weakened him/bound him so that yeah, he could be finished off.
I could be wrong; it's been a while and I'm having a burst of pre-work laziness so I'm not gonna check it right now.
Last edited by Maxus on Tue Jan 15, 2013 8:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.
--The horror of Mario
Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
--The horror of Mario
Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
The Necromancer is actually Sauron in the books. He and three Ringwraiths are up in Dol Guldur during the events of The Hobbit, while the rest of them are getting Mordor set up.
Last edited by name_here on Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
DSMatticus wrote:It's not just that everything you say is stupid, but that they are Gordian knots of stupid that leave me completely bewildered as to where to even begin. After hearing you speak Alexander the Great would stab you and triumphantly declare the puzzle solved.
I only remember the poem having like a dozen versus. Am I missing something?Dr_Noface wrote:If they don't include all 27 goddamn verses of "Over the Misty Mountains Cold" in the extended cut, I will slice off Peter Jackson's dick and throw it into Mount Doom. What a pile of fucking horseshit.
Game On,
fbmf